Soul Led Leaders Podcast

Note: the video also has captions, for accessibility.

[00:00:00.840] - Clare Josa
So hello, everybody, thank you so much for joining us today, and today's topic is one that's really close to my heart. I am a massive introvert. Yeah, I love being on stage and being around people, but I am a huge introvert and Joanna Rawbone is with us today. She is a champion of the cause to remove extroversion bias from the workplace. And she's seen firsthand how it can undermine engagement, productivity and performance as well as impacting mental health.

[00:00:29.340] - Clare Josa
So what we're going to cover in this interview today is what is being an introvert, some of the myths around it, why understanding it is so vital for hybrid working and how to include introverts naturally to enable us to play to our strengths. The Soul Led Leaders podcast is for corporate leaders who are making waves and changing the rules with their hearts, not just their heads, but they know that their secret 3:00 a.m. Self-talk is getting in the way where other stress about the status quo.

[00:00:57.270] - Clare Josa
You're the action taker who drives the changes and making a difference and being a crusader is hardwired into your DNA to Soul Led Leaders podcast is here to help. Led by Clare Josa law change eight times, also an international speaker. Each episode is designed to help you to clear out the secret glass ceilings you never realised you put in your own way so that you can step up showing up with all of who you really are and reclaim your power to make the difference.

[00:01:23.640] - Clare Josa
You know, you are really here to make in the world with clarity, confidence and passion. So, Joanna, welcome and thank you so much for joining us today. You're welcome. It's a real pleasure to be here, Claire, so thanks for the invite.

[00:01:37.800] - Clare Josa
You're welcome. Joanna, just before we start to set the scene, could you give us a quick tour of how you ended up specialising in supporting introverts and removing extroversion bias from organisations?

[00:01:50.040] - Speaker 3
I can indeed. And it is an interesting story. I think I've been working as well. Originally, it was so long ago, I started working as a trainer before we became posh and it became learning and development. So I started working as a trainer when I was still at BT in 1987. So I've been doing this longer than some of our audience will have been on this planet. And I say that because I love what I do. And I you know, I absolutely loved that particular role.

[00:02:19.950] - Speaker 3
I left but in 94 and set up in business on my own and had a whole range of international clients. I worked as an associate of some training organisations, and what I realised is how big the personalities were of some of the trainers I was working alongside. And they seemed to be more entertainers than trainers. So part of my brain, having always known that I was quiet, I was different, a part of my brain thought, right. Well, I better turn it up then, if I want to be perceived in the same way as they are.

[00:02:52.140] - Speaker 3
It was in my thirties that I did the Myers Briggs type indicator, found out I was an introvert and read. I know some people really critical of Miss Briggs, but I read that little paragraph or two of description and it was like, how can somebody see into my soul as much as that particular description did? But what it didn't do was help me understand how to manage that introversion. So what it gave me a clue was to do was to how to be more extroverted.

[00:03:20.440] - Speaker 3
So I spent another couple of decades ramping up the extroversion because that's the bias, you know, the society that we exist in. And then I finally got mad enough. You know, when old ladies get to that age where it's like, okay, I can say what I feel, what I really feel now. And it was just before I got to my fifty ninth birthday, I finally I had enough I got mad enough working around the world and constantly seeing introverts being overlooked, being criticised, being given feedback that they needed to or frankly be more extrovert, push yourself forward, speak up more, do this, do that.

[00:04:01.440] - Speaker 3
And so many of them have such brilliant contribution to make and organisations are missing it. So when I got mad enough, I thought, right, it's time for flourishing introverts, because if not me, who if not now, when so flourishing introverts was born.

[00:04:18.670] - Clare Josa
That's a wonderful story, Joanna. And I remember back in my corporate days, the first time I did my first break, I actually came out as an extrovert, which really surprised me. But it was because it was measuring behaviours. Yeah. And I had had to change who I was and how I was showing up to be able to thrive in a very heavily extrovert environment. So, yeah, there were a lot of us out there. But in case people just starting at the beginning, in case people are kind of like falling for that old thing about introverts are shy and not confident, how do you define introversion versus extroversion?

[00:04:51.480] - Speaker 3
I go back to the original Jungian definition. I'm a big Jungian as opposed to a Freudian. So I go back to the Jungian definition. And it was young originally I. Identified that it's what charges and drains the batteries that differentiates between introvert and extrovert, so introverts are charged by being alone solo activities or if they're with other people. As you know, my husband and I frequently are in companionable silence. So we don't need busyness. We don't need a lot of hustle bustle around us, whereas extroverts are charged by social interaction, active experiences and change.

[00:05:31.080] - Speaker 3
So the very thing that charges the introvert drain's charges the extrovert drains the introvert. And that's where some of the tension in organisation arises because the extroverts cannot understand why we don't join in with the chatter, why we don't, you know, get fired up by being in in kind of quite sparkie environments. And a lot of that is is really because what we're trying to do is to hang on to what little mental battery we have in order to do our best work, because most of us that's why we're employed to do great work.

[00:06:06.540] - Speaker 3
And yet the very environment we exist in. So the you know, people wrongly assume that introverts lack ambition because we don't always say me, me, me, push ourselves forward. People wrongly assume that introverts are lonely because we like time alone. There is a huge difference between being alone and being lonely, that we're boring, that we're dull. I was called Darla's. Earlier on in my career, and that really kind of really landed and really hurt, actually, because I realised that because I wasn't an entertainer, I wasn't funny that I was that I was dull and boring and, you know, so the myths and misconceptions go on.

[00:06:46.580] - Speaker 3
If you Google introvert, you'll get a whole raft of really negative things, you know, in terms of including egoist, in terms of loner, shy, depressed, social anxiety, all those sorts of things. And you Google extrovert and it's lively, witty, you know. So who would ever put the hand up and claim to be an introvert when that's the perception that there is around us? Fortunately, that's changing, but it's taken too long to change.

[00:07:14.510] - Clare Josa
So we've got a great comment here in the chat already. Joanna, is, I must say, that such a session is this is needed in every workplace is such a bias against introversion. Thank you for hosting us today. So, yeah, I remember my last corporate role. By that point, I realised I was really strong on the introversion. Yeah, I used to have to get in at 7:00 in the morning and stay till seven at night just so I could have some quiet time in the open plan office to get my work done.

[00:07:39.320] - Clare Josa
And then by that point, all of the extroverts would actually go out to the pub. And I decided I was little miss antisocial because I was like, but I've used my batteries today, you know, at the end of a conference, the extroverts, all they're saying, right, which bar, which club, which pub. And I'm hiding under the table thinking, how soon can I get back to my hotel room? But it doesn't mean I don't love the people and it really impacts our ability to network and be visible and be seen.

[00:08:04.290] - Speaker 3
Absolutely. And I remember exactly the same thing. We were we were delivering a large scale training to an investment bank for their 120 grads. And I was working with some extroverted colleagues. And, you know, one of the most extroverted at the end of the day would say, right, me, my group are going to the pub. And I said, good, I'm going back to my hotel room. So exactly the same, exactly this.

[00:08:28.160] - Clare Josa
But we do get very judged for it. So when we're looking at hybrid, yes, this hybrid means the different personality types. And what will their preferences be likely to be?

[00:08:39.290] - Speaker 3
I think we need to really distil down what hybrid truly means because so many organisations are claiming to offer Hybrid working when actually what they're not doing is offering that they're offering flexible working. True hybrid working is where people choose, where they get their work done and and often when they get their work done to so many introverts will have found that during lockdown they were more productive if they lived in an introvert friendly household and if they had somewhere that wasn't sitting on their bed working so often, they found they were more productive.

[00:09:17.180] - Speaker 3
And so with with true hybrid working, if I could choose where I get my work done, then what I'm probably going to choose is majority of my time at home or out of an open plan office. I may choose a coffee shop if it's quite a quiet one. If I know I can get good wi fi and get stuff done, it doesn't mean I have to be locked away at home. But I'm probably, as an introvert, not going to choose to rush back into the office if it's an open plan office and everyone is going to be hail fellow well met and all that sort of stuff, whereas many extroverts are craving that because in lockdown really hasn't suited them is it's like imagining an extrovert working in a library, you know, that's going to drive them crackers, whereas it's quite a good job for many introverts.

[00:10:05.060] - Speaker 3
So extroverts are going to be the first to want to go back into the office. And ironically, what I found is the first to judge people who don't want to go back. So people who say, you know what, actually I'm fine working from home, you can see by my stats I'm really productive. But they're judged as being not team players or, you know, not really committed to the organisation or not really ambitious. So we really need to take care of the judgements that are being made.

[00:10:33.050] - Speaker 3
So that's likely to be how people will choose to work in a real hybrid situation.

[00:10:40.490] - Clare Josa
It's so important that judging is something I'm seeing a lot at the moment in organisations, and unless you've got an excuse to work from home, which your personality type is not deemed sufficient, then you will be judged and potentially excluded. But you and I know something else is really important to you is about the tale of two lockdowns and lockdown has been different for these two personality types yet.

[00:11:04.750] - Speaker 3
So one of the things that we, you know, we really think about with the tale of two lockdowns is is really starting to think about if I'm if I'm working in a home environment that's introvert friendly, where I'm surrounded by by radiator's people who give me energy so that one of the myths and misconceptions is that introverts don't like people. That's not introversion. So we need to be really kind of clear that introverts love people. But what we love is people who get us, people who understand us, people who give us space.

[00:11:40.960] - Speaker 3
So, you know, if I've been working in that introvert friendly space with people who give me energy, who give me space, then it's been an absolute joy. But, you know, many of us, if we've been trying to manage childcare and a husband working or a partner working from home at the same time, it has been far from easy. So it's wrong to say that all introverts have thrived during lockdown. Really not true. It depends on the environment.

[00:12:10.870] - Speaker 3
And and that's one of the important things that I'd love organisations to think about, is that environment and Alexander done higher than higher has a wonderful phrase that he says it's something along I may misquote. So forgive me, but something along the lines of, you know, if a flower fails to to bloom, we don't blame the flower. We check the environment or the conditions it's growing in. And that's the approach that we really need to bring to our talent and people.

[00:12:39.790] - Speaker 3
Management is if somebody is not thriving, you know, it's not necessarily that they're at fault. They're wrong. Let's check the environment that we're expecting them to flourish in.

[00:12:51.550] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. Such an important point. Now, very quick question before we move on to the next topic is can we change over time? Can we swap our preference? Is it black and white? Is it a sliding scale? How does that work, Joanna?

[00:13:04.330] - Speaker 3
So one of the things that I've I've got is an introvert quiz that helps people identify what type of introvert they are because it's not as simple as being where introvert or where extrovert for some of us is. For some of us, that preference is so clear, but it is a preference. And what we need to be really clear about is that behaviour sits on top of that preference. So I will always, always, always have a need to recharge quietly on my own.

[00:13:33.910] - Speaker 3
I'm very aware of when my mental battery is starting to drain. I check it almost like I do my phone battery because I can feel when when I'm starting to check out mentally, if not physically. And those who love me and know me will even comment and say hello, just checking out. And what they do is just give me space in that moment. So, so introvert and extrovert will tend to have that need either for any busy environment, which is the extrovert or a quieter environment which is the introvert.

[00:14:09.070] - Speaker 3
In order to recharge my Brigg's actually says that the older we get, the less attached we get to our preferences. But we're always going to have that either need to recharge on our own or even need to recharge with other people and with that busy environment. And then what we can be is is more flexible. So when I'm working with my breaks because I'm a certified practitioner in organisations, one of the things we do with leaders is help them understand how to how to flex elegantly between the styles when we're problem-solving, how to take account of the different styles.

[00:14:46.600] - Speaker 3
So do we change? Not really. We get less attached. But what we do, I find is that we get more and more self aware and we understand ourselves better. So in my case, where I pretended to be extroverted for so long and bit like you were saying earlier, I then get to the point of saying enough pretends I'm not pretending anymore. I'm going to be me. I'm going to own my strengths, I'm going to play to them and I'm going to talk about introversion and all the positive qualities rather than pretending.

[00:15:20.110] - Speaker 3
So I don't know that we actually change. What I think we do is we we are less attached. We can flex easier and we know ourselves better.

[00:15:29.410] - Clare Josa
That's a great answer. And I know, for example, one of the things I have to do is you're saying you check your energy levels. I choose to spend mine like money. Yeah. So on Sunday, for example. All week we had a fantastic day. I had three really big events, we had to travel a couple of hours to get the three things we were doing, meeting up with lots of different people. I knew it was going to take a lot of people energy.

[00:15:51.200] - Clare Josa
So for a couple of days beforehand, I cancelled all people time apart from my family. And on Monday I made sure I had no client meetings because I had to build up my people bucket and use it on Sunday. And I knew that on Monday I would need to refill it through quiet time, working at home on my own in my office. I do the same for keynotes. When people say Okeanos, you just show up for 9:00. Well, you actually start prepping for it energy wise a couple of days before to build up enough energy.

[00:16:20.900] - Clare Josa
And I go straight from that keynote into more meetings. I will have two days in bed with a migraine.

[00:16:25.920] - Speaker 3
Absolutely. And there is a very well recognised path from introvert overwhelm through into introvert hangover, through into introvert burnout. And unless we do exactly as you've done and and pre charge and then recharge, then we're going to fall foul of that and we're going to be no good for anything. So it's such a good strategy.

[00:16:47.860] - Clare Josa
Falling foul of it and being no good for anything, many times it relevant, but you can imagine everybody listening and watching to this, I believe, on the replay. You can imagine as a leader, as a line manager, as a colleague, if we've got introverts and we're pushing them into lots and lots of people time without accepting and helping them to plan in their ability to recharge the batteries, that it's going to cause major problems. Back in the days where we were hopping onto planes, trains and cars every day to go to different places, then that was incredibly draining for introverts.

[00:17:20.190] - Clare Josa
And when we push on through, as you say, Joanna, it triggers burnout, which is one of my real pet topics. Yes. Well, when we're looking at making the working environment more introvert friendly because it's a large proportion of people, isn't it? Something like around 40 percent of employees?

[00:17:37.330] - Speaker 3
Well, the data that I've got says that about 47 percent of UK individuals identify as an introvert, 53 percent of us. And yet we think of the US as being much more extroverted society. But that means there's even more people pretending to be extroverted in order to fit in. So incredible. It is a huge you know, this this is such a significant number. We can't afford to overlook it now.

[00:18:08.140] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And when I look at my Soul Led Leaders at work, I talk about courageous alignment, which is where we're totally lined up with who we really are and comfortable in our own skin so we can show up as all of who we are as a leader. If we're having to pretend to be extrovert, something that we're not, then the unconscious message that's giving us is clear, not good enough. And you can imagine how that will trigger things like my other pet subject, Imposter Syndrome.

[00:18:31.850] - Clare Josa
Yes.

[00:18:32.690] - Speaker 3
And and that's a lot of the work I do with the introverts because they've had years or decades of being told to be different. So the overwhelming message and because it happens, it starts so early in childhood, often by the time people are getting into their senior schools and on into employment, they're already at that point of thinking they're not enough. So they're Inner Critic is usually overactive, that Imposter Syndrome can then get triggered by that. And, you know, it's a real problem.

[00:19:00.670] - Speaker 3
And I'm working with people in their forties and fifties Hirani just realising that there's nothing wrong with them. They're just an introvert. And we've got decades then of of them not being good enough to kind of unpick and rework. So it's a real problem for people.

[00:19:18.480] - Clare Josa
It's a really big issue. Yeah, because we judge ourselves, we assume that we're the one that's broke and needs fixing somehow because we're not conforming to the stereotype anachronistic.

[00:19:28.410] - Speaker 3
And that's why I'm so committed to I know this is a huge undertaking, but it's why I'm so committed to shifting the extroversion bias. It's why I did my TED talk is why I'm doing the work I'm doing, rattling the cages of organisations saying, you know, if you think you've got a good DGI policy, think again. Because unless you're taking into account this aspect of neurodiversity, you're kidding yourselves.

[00:19:52.080] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And we're putting so much effort in for minorities that are actually much, much smaller than this and completely ignoring that nearly 50 percent who will really struggle with open plan offices and hot desking and all of that kind of thing, which which segues us on to what can we do with genuine hybrid working when we know that people aren't going to have their old working environment? What can we do to make that introvert friendly? Particularly is the evidence that you and I are seeing that we've discussed before, is that a lot of the return to work committees are being led by the extroverts who are desperate to get back in the office.

[00:20:27.330] - Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a couple of things that are quite quick wins. One is to banish forever back to back meetings because talking about recharge, you know, when we're expected to either on Zoome or when we're back in the office, when we're expected to attend back to back meetings, introverts don't get that downtime. Now, my big worry actually is not just for the introverts, but it's for the whole business community. When do we get the work done that was generated by that meeting when we have a culture of back to back meetings?

[00:21:02.280] - Speaker 3
And I can tell you when people get it done at 7:00 in the evening or 9:00 in the evening or 7:00 the next morning, because they look at their next day on their calendar and it's Chocho or I've seen this quite often, they don't they're not fully present in the meeting because they're busy doing the work that came out of the meeting before, and all of which is a complete waste of people's time. So I think banishing back to back meetings would absolutely be one of the things that I would say straight away and also making sure that in the horrendous kind of situation is open plan offices, that there are quiet spaces for people to work.

[00:21:42.090] - Speaker 3
You know, my niece is a teacher, and when she came to my TED talk, one of the things she implemented after that is that she now has a quiet table in her classroom, not as a punishment, but for children who choose to go and sit on the quiet table so that they can focus and do their work quietly. They're choosing that environment. We need the same in our office spaces. And I was talking to a colleague recently who said she met the person, the man who invented open plan offices.

[00:22:12.960] - Speaker 3
She said, and I was considering kneecapping him.

[00:22:15.690] - Clare Josa
And I would I I don't think I'm normally very restrained. I don't think I'd be polite.

[00:22:23.250] - Speaker 3
No, exactly. Exactly. And, you know, I understand it and I understand it from an economic perspective. And actually having those little offices wasn't much good either because, you know, a little office with three introverts and an extrovert was just a living hell as well. So, you know, I understand, but let's be tolerant of it. If introverts ask to wear headphones, for instance, don't automatically assume that it's because they're unsociable and they're disconnected and they're disengaged.

[00:22:55.530] - Speaker 3
Far from it. Potentially what they're doing is they're focussing to get into flow to do their best work. So let's really enquire and ask, what is it? What kind of situation, what environment brings out the best in you? And let's do that as a team. Let's do that as an organisation. Let's have those conversations rather than assuming that everyone is just waiting to leap back. And, you know, I've got really frustrated with people saying I can't wait for things to get back to normal people.

[00:23:27.450] - Speaker 3
There is no going back. What we're doing is creating a new normal. And let's do that intelligently and with diversity and equitable inclusion at the heart of it.

[00:23:39.120] - Clare Josa
This is so important. I mean, I remember back in my last corporate role, sometimes the only way I could get work done during the day was to go and hide in a meeting room with earphones and playing some of that, like binaural music in the background noise, cancelling earphones because there was nowhere quiet. And the work I was doing required me to process huge amounts of data and draw conclusions and make strategic recommendations. And I couldn't do it in a noisy environment.

[00:24:06.210] - Clare Josa
For me, one of the big triggers was telephones and with the telephone going off almost constantly and that 200 person environment and the phones ringing a lot less now. But we've got everybody on meetings where you can only hear half the conversation. We've got teams, teams, Peng's, you know, all of the apps pinging constantly. It's going to be really hard for an introvert to find that quiet space. And it's something that businesses really need to build into their strategy, isn't it, Joanna?

[00:24:34.020] - Speaker 3
And I think the other thing is because you're absolutely right, I have a client who has seven different ways that information can get to her in the workplace. So before she starts a piece of work, she has to check all seven to see if something has come in that is going to change the way she's going to approach something. And, you know, that is just bonkers. So I think organisations also need to rationalise how we are contactable so that we're not overwhelmed with this stuff.

[00:25:02.730] - Speaker 3
And, you know, one of the things that and I guess it might have been designed by an extrovert as well, is the kind of the Jabba the yaama, those kind of instant messaging things, because, of course, we must be instantly contactable. And how to how do we expect people to do their best work when we ping them a message, interrupt them from what they're doing, expect them to respond immediately. Let's go back and understand how people work so that what we can do is design workplaces where people are productive and get their best work done.

[00:25:39.630] - Clare Josa
This is so vitally important because even an extrovert will be distracted by that. Yeah, yeah. Then you go and they will be distracted. But the chances are it will feed their battery because it's something interesting, something exciting. Somebody needs me something. What somebody wants something. It will interrupt their flow. But the next piece of research that I want to do is whether it's easier for introverts to get into flow because we have this kind of approach that we have.

[00:26:10.950] - Clare Josa
I suspect the extroverts typically will find it an alien concept or much more difficult, certainly, because they are you know, they're almost the butterfly who kind of all the next thing. The so that email pop up that comes at the bottom of your screen is very seductive because it's like, oh, somebody wants me, somebody wants something. Whereas an introvert will find it much easier to turn that alarm, that alert off or that notification off so that they can focus.

[00:26:41.640] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And yet so many cultures at the moment, particularly over lockdown, because we've got this drive to prove that we're still delivering what we're meant to be delivering have created an environment where, as you say with your client, you have to check all seven sources of contact before you can start work on a project. And that simply isn't good for productivity. Indeed, brilliant. So one of the other things that's really important about you. Okay.

[00:27:08.030] - Speaker 3
That have got automatic lights and if I don't move enough, they go off and I stick.

[00:27:15.660] - Clare Josa
So one of the things that's also really important as we look at what Hybrid working will mean is a lot of teams want to rebuild and a lot of the extroverts in the teams are like, let's go out for dinner, let's go out for drinks, doing all of this extra socialising. And we're not antisocial as introverts. But what can businesses do both as they reintegrate with the team building and then also to make sure that introverts are not missing out because they're not in line of sight?

[00:27:41.250] - Clare Josa
Visibility in the office as much as the extroverts.

[00:27:44.200] - Speaker 3
Yeah, this is a piece of work I've done with a client of mine recently because the the whole thing about Hybrid working and let's imagine an organisation is using hybrid effectively in terms of people choose where they get their work done. Chances are it's going to be the extroverts who are in the office more often. And because they're then front of mind, they're likely to be offered more of those exciting opportunities. So I think it's about managers having to do a little bit more thought around.

[00:28:14.640] - Speaker 3
Okay, what opportunities are coming up? Who might be the right person to do this, either because it's their skill set or they need to get involved in something like that rather than just considering who happens to be in front of them in the moment. So I think it's important that managers, you know, I hate to say it, but probably almost have a spreadsheet actually, of what opportunities are coming in. Who's being offered. So that, you know, everyone is getting an equal share of some of the exciting work and when it comes to team building, you know, there are many introverts who really the thought of high ropes kind of team building and, you know, bursting balloons and doing whatever really doesn't work for them.

[00:29:00.100] - Speaker 3
And it comes back to because we as introverts, our communication process tends to be think they think. So when somebody asks a question, we genuinely want to think about the answer to give our honest response. So a lot of those those types of activities don't really require a thought through through response. It's fun because people don't realise the fun is very subjective. So I think it's about leaders and managers identifying what kind of activities would genuinely rebuild this team so that it's not just about we've had a great night out or we've been tenpin bowling.

[00:29:40.690] - Speaker 3
And I don't know how that builds teamwork. I really don't I don't mind tenpin bowling, but I don't see how it adds to teamwork. So I think it's about looking at this in terms of what worked for us as as a function or as a team during lockdown. And what do we want to bring with us? Let's bring the best of lockdown with us so that we have intelligent conversations with us and we get to understand what makes each other tick because I'm all about inclusive city rather than further divisions.

[00:30:13.330] - Speaker 3
And that means that we need to understand each other better and we need to understand and be tolerant of differences and appreciate it and value it and start to see how it complements what each of us does. So it's not introverts against extroverts. And unfortunately, I'm a member of a few introvert communities where all they do is complain about extroverts. That's not the point either. We need to understand that they need that social interaction in order to recharge as much as we don't need it.

[00:30:44.140] - Speaker 3
So let's make the team building really understand and perhaps even use something like the Patrick Lencioni triangle in terms of if it starts with trust and trust is is the basic of a functional team. What does trust look like to each of us? What do we need to do in order to trust each other? And let's surface some of those previously undiscussable about when Joe's not in the office. It's because she's not committed. No, when Joe's not in the office, it's because she's doing great work elsewhere.

[00:31:17.080] - Speaker 3
So let's have intelligent team building, not subjective fun team building. That, frankly, is just an excuse for a bit of a party.

[00:31:26.350] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And one of the great comments you've got here is we have exactly this problem in our office. So many sport related social events. It doesn't suit a lot of people. I still remember in my very first job after university being forced to join the baseball team because you had to have at least one woman on the team every week to be allowed to play. And I was an engineer. There weren't many of it. I hated it. It was humiliating and mortifying.

[00:31:49.000] - Clare Josa
But I was told if I didn't do it, I would never get promoted because I wouldn't be seen as a team player. And I think one of the other things that comes up, because so many of our leaders have had to pretend to be extroverts to get to where they are, there then becomes this thing where they actually judge the introverts for not playing that same game. Yeah, what we actually need is a huge amount of healing on. I'm really sorry that you've had to pretend to be somebody that you're not for so long in order to succeed.

[00:32:16.870] - Clare Josa
Now it's time to support everybody. As you say, this is a neurodiversity issue. This is something that needs to be at the core of DNA strategy. This isn't a bunch of people asking for special treatment because we've suddenly decided with special snowflakes, this is us saying we cannot thrive in an extrovert environment long term. We've just had fifteen months experiencing the opposite in many, many situations. We now need to bring all of us into the workplace rather than pretending to be somebody that we're not spot on.

[00:32:47.350] - Speaker 3
And you know, that message is so important. I'm not after special treatment. I'm after a level playing field. You know, if if we're creating environment in which only fifty one percent of our employees thrive, then that's discrimination. So let's have a level playing field where we can all thrive.

[00:33:06.020] - Clare Josa
That's brilliant. Brilliant. Joanna, so to wrap up, I know that you've got some battery boosters for introverts. Could you share those with us and tell people how they can get their hands on them?

[00:33:16.240] - Speaker 3
Yes. So I developed these talking about that journey from overwhelm into hangover, into burnout. And I've only hit burnout once. And it was a three month long thing that I really don't want to repeat. What I realised is I needed some quick strategies and techniques that I could use that kept me going when I just had to keep going for the rest of the day, you know, like we have. Those little battery charges that give our phone an extra hours of juice is kind of like that.

[00:33:43.980] - Speaker 3
So I have a number of different techniques that I've developed that work for me, and they're available as a download for people either to try them and then create their own. But they're very simple things like using acupressure points, you know, the third eye or this point here, which brings us back to being able to focus again using essential oils. Lemon in particular is really great for focus. So if there is stuff going on around me and I need to get back and focus something like lemon oil can be really useful for that.

[00:34:14.130] - Speaker 3
I have crystals and I usually have one tucked down my top. Actually, if I'm going to somewhere and I need a bit of protection, movement is really important. You know, if I'm if I am in a place where there's lots going on and I need to think I will do a walking meditation or I will do a walking thinking practise, and if I need to recharge the battery just a quick up and down stairs a few times or so, I'll make the excuse that I'm taking myself to the bathroom.

[00:34:41.940] - Speaker 3
But I'll go a little I'll go the long way round in order just to get me moving a bit. And if I'm working at home or on my own in the office, a dance break will work really well to so simple little techniques that. Exactly. That just give us that extra boost we need. And they're available at flourishing, flourishing essentials me and is just a simple download and use it as a starter for ten. But find out, find the things that work for you.

[00:35:11.430] - Speaker 3
So for me, they're brilliant little techniques.

[00:35:15.000] - Clare Josa
Fantastic. Thank you, Joanna. And what is the best way for people to connect with you? Obviously, your Joanna Rawbone on LinkedIn. What what's your website? How do you like people to get in touch if you go to flourishing, flourishing introverts dot com? My website has my podcast, has my TED talk, has a few musings and has kind of what it is that I'm about. So that's probably on the quiz to find out what type of introvert you are.

[00:35:42.510] - Clare Josa
So everything is in. That's kind of one stop shop.

[00:35:45.540] - Clare Josa
Thank you so much, Joe. And I have to say, for those of you who've been in the chat on the live round of this site, I need my workplace to read this or to see this or hear this. Please feel free to share the replay of this session. And also, I have to say, Joanna's TED talk is a very well spent. Twenty minutes. I watched it before I first connected with everyone. There is nobody else I want to talk to on this topic really well.

[00:36:07.620] - Speaker 3
And there's a couple of good articles that I'm very happy for people to have. One was in Diversity and inclusion leader last week or the week before and one was in H.R. Director. So if you want something with a bit of clout to send to the right people, those are the kind of articles you'll need to send them.

[00:36:26.140] - Clare Josa
Thank you so much, Joanne. I'm going to wrap this session up today. It's been wonderful that you've shared your time, your wisdom, your inspiration. Thank you for those who've been live with us for your questions and your feedback and everybody go and take some action. Yeah. What is the one thing that you could do in your workplace to support introverts, to flourish and thrive as we move back from whatever we've been doing into Hybrid working, whatever new normal we can create and go and take that action in the next 24 hours.

[00:36:55.930] - Speaker 3
Perfect. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure talking with you, Claire.

[00:36:59.180] - Joanna Rawbone
Thank you, Joanna. Schoen notes Deepti Resources and access to Claire's inspirational weekly Soul Led Leaders email is available for you at Clare Josa dot com forward slash Soul Led Leaders.